Curse

MagnumShadow · Jul 16, 2011, 12:53 AM // 00:53

I for one love to RP.My necro hates the white mantle and during WiK he killed almost every white mantle soldier he saw.After battle for LA instead of taking prisoners he killed them.He commited a "White Mantle purge" sorta.
Now at the end of ch1 of WoC he says "Omg these gang members has families,what have i done QQ"
I was like wth dude ?

Chthon · Jul 16, 2011, 01:12 AM // 01:12

A handful of thoughts:

1. I love that a-net is trying to bring GW into more nuanced, grey-shaded storytelling. We haven't had something like this since Prophecies (Are the Mursaat evil or merely doing what is necessary? Is Adelbern a tyrant or merely a stubborn fool?) and the delivery back then was (I have to admit) kinda flubbed. Hopefully they can pull it off this time.

2. Something to mull over for GW2 is the fact that the underlying "red dots vs green dots, and make your choices in a pop-up menu" system of the game engine really limits the player's choice-making ability. Every kill it/don't kill it decision ends up either being scripted or mediated through a clumsy pop-up menu, with the result that the player does not feel like they really "own" their character's moral decisions. If you really want to delve into this sort of storytelling, you need to make some engine changes in that respect.

3. After doing the quest chain in NM, I was feeling a little sympathy for the gangs. After taking a billion tries to get past Tracking the Corruption HM, I've grown to utterly despise the Am Fah with every fiber of my being. DIE, AM FAH, DIE!

4. I'd always wondered if the Am Fah's chalice did anything at all. After we discovered that the "plague" was actually spiritual in nature and caused by Shiro and not some kind of really nasty pathogen, it always seemed like a plot hole to me that the Am Fah's chalice remained linked with the plague. If we assume that Shiro was the voice referenced in the Architect of Corruption dialogue, it clears everything up (and makes the Am Fah really evil, and the Ministry of Purity rather justified in taking out their leader).

5. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'm seeing some interesting references to contemporary American politics. The Ministry seems to be enacting the positions and policies of the American far right wing, but expressing them in language that echos (center-left) Barack Obama. An interesting demonstration of the inherent hollowness of words and how ideological doublespeak can make a phrase mean its opposite. (That is, if it really meant anything to begin with.) According to a (now-removed?) wiki trivia entry, the Ministry is based on 1984's Ministry of Love. If that's true, then a-net really captured the manipulation-of-language aspect very well.

Inasha · Jul 16, 2011, 02:22 AM // 02:22

I like what they're trying to do, but the way they're doing it fell a little flat for me.

The Am Fah, with their plague connection, are basically terrorists with biological weapons of mass destruction. No one (who is not a pacifist) would stand for that. The only question here is whether they all deserve to be killed, or arrested.

The Jade Brotherhood are more of an actual gang, though they do kill random peasants they come across. So it makes sense that the PC may notice that the Ministry is taking things too far against them.

But the mechanism by which our character develops a conscience seems clumsy. It's basically a combination of "I've killed too many people" and "they have families and friends!" This would have been so much better if they had actually shown us this. For example, killing some Jade Brotherhood, then coming across their grieving relatives, who don't attack, and explain how the gang member the PC killed was just trying to provide for their family. The "but this has been our way of life for hundreds of years, it's a tradition" excuse just doesn't make sense... if the tradition is evil, it shouldn't be tolerated. If the Jade Brotherhood are people, don't just tell me they are, let me see them doing something non-evil.

Or better yet, have some actually questionable behavior on the part of the Ministry (other than lying). For example, having the gang members refuse to fight, until your Ministry buddy runs in and starts attacking them.

The problem is, most of GW is "go over here and kill these creatures/people because I told you they're bad." Those things then immediately attack, thus proving that they are bad. And so far, the Ministry quests are the same. That's why it seems so odd that the PC is suddenly questioning everything, without something really questionable actually happening.

Shady Wolf · Jul 16, 2011, 03:22 AM // 03:22

WoC has yet to impress me (I am only a few quests in and already bored). The metabuilds just make everything a headache for me for some reason. Something about WoC—and, really, WiK as well—is not leaving me satisfied. I suppose the difficulty and length of WiK and its ilk seems too much work for too little reward. I appreciate the efforts, though.

Kunder · Jul 16, 2011, 04:25 AM // 04:25

I think its pretty clear that the difference between WoC and the rest of guild wars is that here you are being tasked specifically with the destruction of a group of people for its own end. At no other time did you start a mission saying "OK, lets wipe out every last one of them", it was always "we have a goal, if we don't complete it then bad shit goes down, sorry if you get in our way". The former is an inch away from attempted genocide, the latter is pretty much standard videogame fare. There is a substantial difference between the motivations of these two.

Furthermore, mention should be given to the how quickly (i.e. instantly) the quest chain moves from cleaning out undesirable afflicted to cleaning out undesirable people. Obvious implications here.

Also, Jade Brotherhood simply dress too damn well to have fun killing them.

As to whether your character should be convinced by something like this to let them all go, if this was an RPG I would say it should be up to the player. But it isn't, its a MMO, so monologuing gang leaders get the benefit of the doubt just as the bastard daughter of a king who cowardly fled his country and who has no leadership experience at all is totally the right choice to start rebellions that plunge an entire country into chaos.

AngelWJedi · Jul 16, 2011, 04:46 AM // 04:46

i didnt like how my char was happy to kill then suddenly is like but they are people..if they started this in the middle i could see it make sense. but not at the end xD

Reverend Dr · Jul 16, 2011, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

If they insist on making us fight the gangs I demand more Big Trouble in Little China references.

If they had done a scene-by-scene copy of Big Trouble in Little China just adapted to guild wars, it would have turned out so much better than this garbage.

EDIT: The "big item" of the questline is handed to you at the start, its in a trunk, you just have to take it to <place> because <reason>. At the start you get waylaid by gangs you don't care about and they take your trunk. Face it, you killed the lich, you killed shiro, you kill them both at the same time with abbadon as an encore, then something about dwarves and a dragon, I ain't got time for this petty gang shit. We aren't doing this quest to "help people out" we're doing this for that shiny thing that we get at the end. Well that's in our trunk, so "Just want my trunk."

ShaJiexi · Jul 16, 2011, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Safer Saviour

Sure, it messes with continuity, but it's fresher and more interesting than the mindless monster route. I'd certainly like to see the Ministry as more than the 'Evil Empire' and as a group of somewhat sympathetic individuals.

So would I, and probably will by the next chapter. But wait for them to start killing innocent civilians and actually start killing anyone who disagrees, rather than just bad guys who we've been killing for a long time anyway (eradicating a gang != eradicating innocent civilians)

Reformed · Jul 16, 2011, 12:40 PM // 12:40

@Reverend Dr, We'd need a 'gang' faction that's on our side (Chang Sing) and it'd be all set...maybe have the Jade Brotherhood flip? Am Fah can stay as-is, add in the 3 storms and presto.

Safer Saviour · Jul 16, 2011, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaJiexi

So would I, and probably will by the next chapter. But wait for them to start killing innocent civilians and actually start killing anyone who disagrees, rather than just bad guys who we've been killing for a long time anyway (eradicating a gang != eradicating innocent civilians).

From the perspective of a brutal mercenary, I can understand feeling more sympathy towards gang members than 'innocent' civilians. People emphasise most strongly with those who are like them and considering we've lent ourselves out to totalitarian regimes (White Mantle), terrorists/freedom fighters (Shining Blade), monarchies (Dwarves, SB again), empires (Dragon Empire, Ministry of Purity) and pirates (Luxons), we're closer at heart to the Am Fah and Jade Brotherhood than Mr. and Mrs. Taxpayer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

@Reverend Dr, We'd need a 'gang' faction that's on our side (Chang Sing) and it'd be all set...maybe have the Jade Brotherhood flip? Am Fah can stay as-is, add in the 3 storms and presto.

We have the Obsidian Flame, Nika's gang. I bet the devs have forgotten them by now though.

Verene · Jul 16, 2011, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Anyway, on the topic of the thread, I'm a bit on the fence. With the Am Fah it'd seem a bit weird to suddenly get kinda "...wait a sec" about killing them; they're painted as truly evil and ruthless in Factions. The Jade Brotherhood, though, not so much. Yes, you kill their leader, but they're largely seen as not as big of a deal, not really evil, mostly just competition to keep the Am Fah from completely ruling the streets. I mean, you even side with them against the Am Fah while doing the MOX quests.

And, well, as is the case in any gang...there's going to be people who are there simply because they enjoy causing chaos and violence, and those who are there simply because it offers them safety. Wiping out all of them is beyond the pale, especially if you're essentially tricked into doing so.

Da Kenster · Jul 16, 2011, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

...if you're essentially tricked into doing so.

To be honest, our characters are tricked into a lot of things in the story. We not may be the brightest batch of heroes...

Saint Scarlet · Jul 17, 2011, 03:30 AM // 03:30

To me there isn't anything wrong with the storyline - We as heroes have chosen our path by taking the quests given by the general population that are available, if you as a hero find something distasteful then that quest is not mandatory. A sudden clumsy change of heart perhaps?, but how long does it take to realise something is wrong to you as a hero. Yes the Jade Brotherhood and Am-Fah are gangs and they are bent on doing things which are beneficial to them and a detriment to the society they live within. But when that society decides that all transgressions should be punished at full force is that acceptable?? I myself am in two minds, as yes i believe that killing people for the sake of them being part of a group is wrong....., yet should the people not of thought about possible consequences before joining up with said groups??
In the end i say meh i'm a warrior at heart and i'll fight for whomever pays me the best. When you're knee deep in blood does it matter if they're innocent or not either way you're not innocent anymore.

Oh here's a couple of quotes to help murky the waters of slaying the innocents and evildoers alike.

"I suppose you all realize that as members of the court marshall for the trial of the conspirators in the assassination of our beloved president you have on your souls a grave responsibility. The object of this trial is not to determine the guilt or innocence of a handful of rebels but to save this country from further bloodshed. The solemn truth, gentlemen, is that the federal union is on the verge of hysteria. That is why the trial of these conspirators has been placed in your hands rather than in a civil court. Because men of the sword can be hard, and hardness is all that can save this country from riot, mob rule, even resumption of the war itself.... To help you to be hard, first, you must not allow your judgement in decision in this case to be troubled by any trifling technicalities of the law or any pedantic regard for the customary rules of evidence. Second, and most important, you must not allow yourself to be influenced by that obnoxious creation of legal nonsense—reasonable doubt." -Nunnally Johnson
"I have agreed to go into the service for the war ... [feeling] that this was a just and necessary war and that it demanded the whole power of the country; that I would prefer to go into it if I knew I was to die or be killed in the course of it, than to live through and after it without taking any part in it." -Rutherford Birchard Hayes
"If you feed a thousand people you are a nice man with suspicious motives. If you kill a thousand you are a hero. Continue to get them killed by the thousands and you are a great conqueror than which nothing on earth is greater. Oppress them and you are a great ruler. Rob them by law and they are proud and happy if you let them glimpse you occasionally surrounded by the riches that you have trampled out of their hides. You are truly divine if you meet their weakness with the sword to slay and the dogs to tear. The only time you run great risk is when you serve them. The most repulsive thing to all men is gratitude. Men give up property, freedom and even life before they will have the obligation laid on them." -Zora Neale Hurston
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword"(modern translation being, if you live by the sword, you die by the sword). -Gospel of Matthew, verse 26:52
"Every community is an association of some kind and every community is established with a view to some good; for everyone always acts in order to obtain that which they think good. But, if all communities aim at some good, the state or political community, which is the highest of all, and which embraces all the rest, aims at good in a greater degree than any other, and at the highest good." -Aristotle
"Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong?” -Theodore Roosevelt

MithranArkanere · Jul 18, 2011, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

Anyway, on the topic of the thread, I'm a bit on the fence. With the Am Fah it'd seem a bit weird to suddenly get kinda "...wait a sec" about killing them; they're painted as truly evil and ruthless in Factions. The Jade Brotherhood, though, not so much. Yes, you kill their leader, but they're largely seen as not as big of a deal, not really evil, mostly just competition to keep the Am Fah from completely ruling the streets. I mean, you even side with them against the Am Fah while doing the MOX quests.

And, well, as is the case in any gang...there's going to be people who are there simply because they enjoy causing chaos and violence, and those who are there simply because it offers them safety. Wiping out all of them is beyond the pale, especially if you're essentially tricked into doing so.

You don't side with them. You infiltrate them.
They bought POXto fight the Am Fah, but it was programmed to kill The Emperor.
You infiltrate them to reach the Golem and deactivate it before it does so.

The Am Fah are quasi-religious fanatics that want chaos and destruction and embrace it.

But the Jade Brotherhood are not better. They are criminals that infiltrate the government and corrupt officials for their interests, extort people for protection money and the like.
They are more subtle, and live along innocents like all crime syndicates, but that doesn't make them any better. A clean and shiny dagger stabs better than a rusty one.

The Shinning Blade, The Deldrimor Dwarves, The Obsidian Flame guild, the Emperor, the Shing Jea monastery, The Vanguard, the Sunspears and the Order of Whispers and the Henchmen such as Devona, Zho or Sogolon.
Those are the ones you can trust. Trust no one else.

1 up and 2 down · Jul 18, 2011, 05:50 AM // 05:50

The reason I think the player if finally like, "oh they have families, blah, blah, blah". Is because in this instance we are actually hunting them down and slaughtering them. As opposed to them just attacking us on sight like they do in the explorable instances.

So in the case of the last WoC quest we were the attackers, and in the case of the explorables we are just "defending" ourselves.

syronj · Jul 18, 2011, 12:32 PM // 12:32

This thread is thought-provoking. The tipping point will be when the Ministry runs out of "easy" targets such as Afflicted and gangs, and starts looking for new crusades. One question to me is whether our characters will be alive when Cantha closes its borders and expels all nonhumans (and non-Canthans), or will the player characters be elderly before it gets to that point.

The emperor Usoku is far enough in the future that apparently our characters won't live long enough to see the Houses suppressed and the borders closed, etc. But how much of this will they begin to see in the last years of their lives, assuming they live that long?

cataphract · Jul 18, 2011, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by syronj

The tipping point will be when the Ministry runs out of "easy" targets such as Afflicted and gangs, and starts looking for new crusades.

Easiest target of them all: your own citizens. Because freedom isn't free and anyone that surrenders freedom for security deserves neither. The Ministry will start rounding up civilians into previously (and secretly) built camps and will use us ("Heroes") as an outside mercenary force to do the dirty work. The only thing that can save the Dragon Empire is raising its debt cap.

dudemonkey · Jul 18, 2011, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I left my moral calculator behind when I went out to massacre intelligent creatures for EotN faction points.

Skyy High · Jul 18, 2011, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inasha

Or better yet, have some actually questionable behavior on the part of the Ministry (other than lying). For example, having the gang members refuse to fight, until your Ministry buddy runs in and starts attacking them.

I got some of that from the last quest in the chain. We had succeeded in wiping the Jade Brotherhood from the streets of Kaineng, and we were delving into the sewers to root them out. Their little hideout was, to me, quite pathetic at that point. I imagined most of the gang members being scared stiff about the coming purge from the Ministry (through our characters, naturally). Some of the dialog from the named optional bosses reinforces this as well (and some of it reinforces the idea that, truly, some of these gang members are the bloodthirsty pack of criminals that the Ministry thinks they all are).

At that point, as far as I saw, the Jade Brotherhood looked beaten. Their territory was gone, all the merchants and peasants they had oppressed had risen up (many getting killed in the process, of course...), and they were driven back into the sewers to hide. There was little justification to go in there guns blazing and wipe out the entire group, when it's perfectly plausible that many of the survivors would have walked away from the gang if given the choice.

As for "this came out of nowhere": the switch to killing Jade Brotherhood came out of nowhere, and if you pay attention to your character's quest acceptance/decline options you see that it's a bit shocking to him/her. They go along with it to start because it sounds like a short and sweet operation to chop the head from a snake, like we've done so many times before. What we get stuck with is, effectively, a massive manhunt for every last JB member in Cantha.

cthulhu reborn · Jul 18, 2011, 06:47 PM // 18:47

What can I say? I completely missed the story line. All these walls of text they call story were just silly. I know they don't have the budget to add movies but in the end I always found that outside their mission approach, Anet have been poor story tellers.

I've just clicked text away throughout the whole line of quests because in the end, how much story can you really make out of "go kill afflicted here, then go kill afflicted there" oh and then kill Am Fah too because they have something to do with it. That's all I got from it, aside from the quests being tedious and/or repetitive kill x mobs quests.

I played through the 17 quests and only found out here from Skyy High's comments that I apparently must've killed Jade Brotherhood as well. Oh, I missed that.

Sorry, but now that I have 50 commendations and saw what crap skins we are going to get, I really feel like this was a waste of time. But hey, to each their own. The rest of the game is still a good game at least.